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I will speak my point of view on this entire incident in due time.

Okay, I'm going to reply to this now. But I want you all to keep something in mind. Everyone is forming their own opinions about what's "petty" and "immature" and so forth, without even knowing the least of what has happened.

I will reply specifically to Jake in this thread, and perhaps others with an overview including my thoughts on swiping, why I feel this way, why I was really upset at this point in time, and why I feel there was no need for this to have become the issue that it has.

I hope everyone takes the time to read my reply.

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I find it odd that you deleted the threads, Greg, where Beamer said his goodbyes and appologies (which for the most part arent necessary). Was there a point to this? Most people around here liked Beamer for his work and cheery attitude. I feel like this was something that should have been left.

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I deleted my thread because after a bit of thought, I decided there was no point in bringing up the issue of why I was mad in the art forum. At first, I thought it was the most effcient way of reaching those I was upset with, but soon decided it would be best not to pollute the board with such issues. Thus, my post was removed. The 'point' in removing Will's goodbye post was that I wanted him to rethink leaving -- I don't want anyone to leave here and before it got out of hand I thought it would be best to put the forum back on topic and let people cool down.

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And then theres the 'to those who can't.." thread that really beat around the bush. Too many of the specifics pointed to me. But to be honest the thread smacked of arrogance and childishness. There was NO reason for you to make a thread like that and then lock it! You gave no opportunity for anyone to respond. And even if they did the line about 'if you didnt, email me..if you did, dont email me..ever' blocked yourself off from any communication. Hence how can one respond?

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Like I said before, I was mad at certain people, but I did want to leave it vague enough so that those who knew I was talking about them would be aware, because at the time I didn't even want to talk to any of you. So in haste I made the post, I then locked it and later removed it.

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You want to know the sad thing about all this? Its a damn petty thing to be fighting about. You got a problem with Will's work? Then tell him! Instead of asking 3 or 4 of us what we think of swiping and basically downing Will for one measely swipe. I told you on IM not to crucify him for one pic, but apparently you felt that way with the "I feel foolish for supporting him" comment.

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No, Jake -- that's not what's sad. What's sad is I had a personal opinion about something and wanted to get some confidential imput from 3 people who I considered both trusted friends and good artists, and those people couldn't be trusted to keep their words to not tell Will while I think about it. The fact that I had an opinion and was seeking counsel from my trusted friends did not have to be made into such an issue. However I may have felt about the issue, no matter how I felt about it, was between me and the person I CONFIDED in, not to be tossed aside as a 'so what' about what I thought or felt. I have an opinion on swiping, and in particular Will swiping, which I will reveal further in this post. But the issue that really made me angry was that I felt like he didn't have to know what I was thinking at that time. Those were my personal thoughts to be shared with my personal friends. I did make the choice not to tell him -- one reason being that I listened to you all in your opinion that it wasn't such a big deal. The other being I saw no need to hurt his feelings or otherwise make an issue of something I was prepared to drop. If I wanted to make a 'scene' (Remember, I'm not the one who posted this thread about it) I would have simply posted the pics from the get go. But I will post them now so people will see them and know the full story.

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As Skankerzero mentioned in Wills thread, swiping is fairly mainstream, and the fact that Wills swipe disturbed you is pretty lame. I didnt find it a big deal then and I dont now. Hell I've swiped on a couple occasions. The nari pic I did of her crouching was taken from a Witchblade comic. I'm not pro and I dont pretend to be.

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The fact that you found my opinions 'lame' still didn't give you (or anyone) a right to violate my trust as a friend. But this isn't about *you* wanting to become a pro, its about Will.

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So what if I mentioned to Will that the pic disturbed you. Its been close to a freaking month! I had thought that maybe you had calmed down or gotten over it!

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Yeah, I did. That's why I didn't see the need to have it brought up and made a big deal about to Will. Unlike the people who told him. The swiping took place over a month ago, but the fact that my friends broke their word took place just now, which is the *bottom line* why I'm upset. So lets get our facts straight about why I was mad the other day.

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I can understand Will's reason to not post here anymore, and after thinking about it I just might do the same (of course providing that this thread doesnt get deleted or myself banned). Care to mention to him the lay over of the pic he did and the version he took it from? I dont know about you but that would offend me. And I'm sure just about everyone else who does art. Perhaps thats taking it a bit to far and moving into gestopo (sp?) realms

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So your reasoning is because a single person in this forum (me) has a problem with a guy who wants to be a comics professional swiping pics, THAT is reason not to post here? Now that sounds more petty and lame then the opinion that prompted it.

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And the reason this is on a thread is because if you, as an admin, use the board to handle situations that should be handled in an email, then the board will be used to respond. And for that matter, why are you, the admin of this board, using the art gallery to handle your personal scores?

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Indeed -- which is why I promptly deleted my posts after coming to the same conclusion. But what's done is done.

So the fact of the matter is, I'm not upset in whole about Will swiping a pic. I'm not saying that people here who swipe pics are bastards. But why does it bother me that Will in particular swipes pics?

I'll tell you why. I have nothing but adoration and respect for Will's drive and talent. I WANT him to succeed in comics as a professional. Most of you don't even read comics, and can't know how the industry works. I do. Despite what you guys think is acceptable in an art forum, in the professional world of comics it is simply bad form. I was upset and let down for one reason and one reason alone -- I am afraid that him doing so could HINDER his ability to get professional work, or even a fanbase if people's impression of him is of someone who swipes other people's work. And I am NOT pulling this interpretation out of my butt. You want to know what pros think about it? Well I asked Erik Larsen, who has been in the industry for near 20 years what he thought about it in his professional opinion

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Erik,
I need to know what your professional opinion is on swiping in the comics industry. I've heard such arguments as 'There are no original poses anymore' and 'Everyone in the industry swipes at some point' but I am really curious as to
what you think about it.

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and this was his response:

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I think it takes away from the story and gives you a strange Déjà vu
sensation. I swipe from myself on occasion for that very reason--to give the
reader that sense and makes them pause to consider where they've seen it
before. I often will swipe if I'm doing a flashback of a scene that another
artist drew (like in Savage Dragon when I redrew scenes from the Star or Mars
Attacks miniseries) but I don't do much other swiping--to me it's like a
speed bump in a story-- you notice it subconsciously and it intrudes into and
disrupts the story.

That other stuff is @#%$. 'There are no original poses anymore' is a lie
and a pathetic one at that. That's like saying that there are no more songs
to be written or words to be strung together. That's a lazy artist trying to
cover his ass. Swiping is a crutch--it's surrendering --it's telling the
world that you can't do it on your own and you have no imagination. It's
pathetic. Yes, almost everybody has swiped from time to time but it IS
stealing. And stealing is wrong.

-Erik

www.savagedragon.com

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So you know, I'm not trying to be a hard ass about it -- but I am trying to look out for Will's well being. This is a comics professional who thinks this -- and I know he's not alone (He's just the only one I know who I can ask). Rob Leifeld got away with it because at Marvel he wasn't caught, and at Image he owned the company. No one respects a comic artist who gets by on swiping, and I want Will to be better than that. I want him to shine through his talents because he's that good, not because he has to rip off other people's work.

There's no legal aspect of swiping -- all the rhetoric about poses not being copyrighted is missing the point about swiping, and swiping is missing the real point about why I was upset.

In any case, here are the pics I said I'd mention. And yeah, it does let me down. Not because I don't care, but because I *do*.


Will's Pic.


The image it was swiped from.

And yes, I did make an overlay pic to compare the line art of the pic, since it basically looked like it was lightboarded, I wanted to see how much alike it really was:


Personally, I can't argue that Will is an outstanding inker and great artist. He is. Which is why I want to see him succeed above all else.

The resentment you've witnessed in the past day or so is a result of me feeling like my friends didn't care that I wanted something to be private, and that I sought their counsel and really honestly felt betrayed by it getting out in such an exgerrated and uncontrolled manner. I wanted to let it go, or at least bring it up in my own time in my own way.

I just hope everyone understands all I have said.

I don't want anyone to leave the board for any reason. There's just no need, not because someone has an opinion about your art... otherwise why are you here to start with?

Okay.. I can see that you all are @#%$ blind to the point I am trying to make, so I will spell it out in EZ TO UNNERSTAND terms:


I haven't lost my faith in Will, nor do I question his ability, but the fact of the matter is, what YOU all think is okay and what isn't DOES NOT MATTER in terms of professional comics. Everyone has their own points of view, obviously, but I do think that Erik's opinions are going to echo the people Will will someday be wanting to impress, people he will want to hire him, and people who will scrutinize EVERY ASPECT of his work. Clearly you all have never seen an editor critique someone's work looking for employment in the comics industry. I've seen people who's work I would never even question get ripped to shreds by the pros. THAT is how the business works, whether you like it or not or whether you know it or not.

Swiping in comics is frowned upon, period. I set Will at a much higher standard than anyone else in the forum because he alone has a shot at making it. I WANT to see him succeed at it, so whether you agree with it or not, he's going to have to hear it from the horse's mouth, in this case a pro who's been at it for over 20 years, founder and co-owner of IMAGE COMICS.

Insulting my work is neither appropriate nor relevant to this. I want Will to become pro -- its all I've wanted for him since the day we met. Its what he's trying to do. He's not here to indulge himself as a fan artist, he wants to do this for a living. Why some of you can't seem to COMPRHEND that is beyond me.

So do not broaden the term of swiping to include using items as reference such as nature, or photographs to understand the detail of objects. What is swiping is when a comic artist draws a picture or a scene, and you draw a duplicate scene or picture changing only small details such as the character's face or clothing.

I thought that my above post would have gotten that point across, but I can see the small mindedness here knows no bounds.

I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me so why are you arguing about it? Its my opinion, and the opinion of most pros if asked. If you REALLY want Will to achieve his dream of drawing comics for a living, you'll stop trying to justify something that is considered a major no-no in the INDUSTRY. I'm not talking about painting portraits, I'm not talking about drawing fan art -- I'm talking about making a living drawing COMIC BOOKS, which clearly most of you know nothing about.

Insulting me for having an opinion *is* petty, and makes you the biggest bunch of molly coddled hypocrits I've seen in quite a while.

And for the record I'm speaking as an artist, a fan of artists and a fan of the comicbook genre of which I DO know something about.

And to top it all off, you STILL MISSED THE ENTIRE @#%$ POINT of why I was mad in the first place.

Pathetic.